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January 05, 2007



nothing like a high level "he said - he said" issue to cast doubt over an entire organization.

Lieutenant Locke

Also remember, there is no such thing as a lie detector test. All that the polygraph does is check your anxiety level. No hard science behind that.

We all have heard of how the military can train soldiers to pass them. Crooks/Liars/Cheats can do the same.

Blog Retired

Just a clarification on the courses: the Air Command & staff College test is NOT an AFIADL test, but rather a correspondence test that can be taken in lieu of attending National Staff College for completion of the Exec/Level 5. Just like the Squadron Officer School correspondence course can be taken in lieu of attending the Region Staff College for completion of Command/Level 4.

OK, PDO lesson over...

Blog Retired

I should clarify that - both the SOS and ACSC are governed by the AFIADL, but they are online correspondense courses rather than TCO controlled written exams. A nice alternative for those who can't take off a week for RSC nor NSC. But I know people who tried taking the SOS and then opted for RSC. The correspondense courses are NOT easy.


"The correspondense courses are NOT easy."

Unless, of course, you have someone to take them for you.

Rocket Man

Sorry, James. While the material for SOS is available online, the tests may be taken in the old fashioned way - I'm currently taking SOS via correspondance. I believe ACSC and AWC are the same way. AFIADL knows not everyone taking the courses has access to a AF electronic testing center, so the written option is still available.

And Skyray is right. SOS is not an easy course.


Simple, we need the truth. I really think the AF IG or at least the AU IG should be doing this, not a CAP member. This affects active duty officers who take this test. I took the "easy way" out for Level 5, SNCO Academy by correspondance.


Are you sure Honest Abe said that quote about fooling people? I thought that was P.T. Barnum.

I agree, the IG report can not come fast enough.


I think PT Barnum said "there is a sucker born every minute"


Hi Folks...long time listener, first time caller ;^))

ACSC tests are available online. The CAP-only AFIADL courses (ES, PAO, Safety, MS, MO) are the last ones to convert to electronic format (if they ever do). CAP Officers can take AF PME exams in any format they are available...including electronic. CAP Officers just can't take the ACSC/AWC seminars.

Just remember, EVERY computer has an IP address...and leaves traces when it has been logged. E-Test or TCO: Tracking this should be cake for the right detective with the right know-how.

Of course I'm speaking hypothetically, because I have no first-hand knowledge of any inquiry.

Jim Quinn

Okay--here's a question:

If Ray Hayden DID in fact take the test for Pineda, isn't he in line for disciplinary action as well?

Does anyone remember the "I shall not lie, cheat or steal, nor shall I tolerate those who do" bit? I do not know all the details, but if Ray Hayden is bringing this alleged incident to light, is he not also exposing himself to sanctions?

Just curious, and most definitely looking for some comments about this.

Rocket Man

The "I shall" is not a CAP oath, code, motto, or slogan. It is from the AFA. It has no bearing on this case. Now, some units have adopted it for their cadets, but it has no standing, officially, for CAP.

As for bringing the incident to light now, what is going to happen to Mr. Hayden? Get kicked out of CAP? Be forced to resign? Be banned from rejoining? Have his reputation damaged? All that has already happened.


Well, if Ray Hayden says that he took a lie detector test and passed it with flying colors, who are we to doubt his word? I mean, just because he's admitted to the world that he is a liar and a cheat, should his credibility ever be called into question?


Please rename this mess "Mungergate", as it's obvious who's behind all of this.


Re RocketMan's comments...he quit CAP rather than face a formal inquiry board into his ridiculous actions at the PDW that got him tossed from his position on FLWG.


Oh, you mean the trumped up BS that Pineda and company were working on behind the scenes to get Hayden 2B'd. Nothing happened at the PDW. How do I know? Because I was sitting right there. By the way, if you are Pineda's nearest and dearest watch out, because word on the street is some of his cronies have been doing ACSC exams take home style.



Can you give the 1-2-3 on how Hayden got to this popint to start with?

There's still a lot of gray here.

Something about not putting his SSN on a From 11, but you don't PUT you SSN on a Form 11.


I was sitting right there when this Captain demanded a copy of the CAPF-11 for a class at the PDW in Boca Raton. There were about six of us in the lobby at the time plus two security guards.

The Capt. had already hounded his course director for a copy of it up stairs - they sent him to Hayden to ask for a copy.

Hayden was nice to him the first half a dozen times he demanded a copy and then Hayden stated in a firm voice (not yelling) that he wasn't going to get it. I remember the incident because Hayden ended with a firm, "Good day, sir. Good day!" And the way he said it made me laugh.

This Capt. who is known to be a muckraker, spun the story up to Hayden slamming his fist, yelling, etc.

Facts are that no one ever questioned any of us - "the real witnesses" to what really happened.

I am sure there is more behind the scenes, but it is well above my pay grade.


Flyguy, and others:

I don't want to go into too much detail, because the captain and squadron commander is in my group. He's really a nice guy, retired airline captain, and a combat veteran of the Israeli Air Force. I will admit, however, that he can be somewhat intense, and he probably was at the PDW.

After the confrontation that you witnessed (And your version is NOT disputed by the captain) the captain later inquired and learned why Hayden made it a practice to not release copies of the CAPF 11. (There was an incident where somebody tried to add a name for someone who wasn't there).

After the captain heard Hayden's very valid reasons why he did not release the CAPF 11 copy, the captain sent him an e-mail to apologize for, and explain, his conduct at the PDW.

Hayden sent the captain an unprofessional and abusive e-mail in return. The captain forwarded the e-mail to the Group commander, who, in turn, forwarded it to the Wing king. The Wing CC made the decision to 2B Hayden based, apparently, on the contents of his e-mail.

Hayden posted a statement on CAPtalk which confirmed this account, except that he characterized the captain's apology as "Baiting" him. He admitted that he "Blasted" the captain in a return e-mail.

Jim Quinn

Thanks for the updates, Gents. I was unaware of the history of this incident. Shameful as it sounds, I'm interested in hearing all about it. I doubt that (m)any of us will ever see the official investigative reports if there are any. With all the positive press CAP is receiving lately, this just doesn't taste very good.


By the way, during this PDW/2B debacle both of Hayden's parents died. His father died right before the PDW and his mother was in hospital dying during the PDW. I guess we can never mistake the "C" in Civil Air Patrol for standing for compassion.


I am aware of Hayden's personal stressors during the PDW. The captain involved was not aware until much later, after the 2B was initiated. This could have and probably should have been handled a little differently, by everybody concerned.


Isn't there an essay as part of the completion requirements for ACSC?

T'would be interesting to see whose writing style is displayed....


Wait a second...

I've taken quite a few AFIADL courses in my time -- back before they starting e-Testing, we all remember the TCO-proctored bubble sheets. But even now with e-Testing, the AFIADL course exam (formerly EOC tests) must be administered at a TCF under the control of a TCO. There's no "go home and do it online" version of an AFIADL test.

What's to make SOS, ACSC, or any other AFIADL credit-awarding course any different?


I know someone that knows Pinedas son, Robert. He is also a CAP member. My friend that knows Robert said that he works within the Law Enforcement community, and that Robert was there when Gen Pineda took these tests. I wonder if the IG spoke to him yet?
Gen Pinedas other son who is not a member is also in Law Enforcement. Wouldnt want to be Hayden!


"Gen Pinedas other son who is not a member is also in Law Enforcement. Wouldnt want to be Hayden!"

Why is that?

I guess you did not know that Col Hayden is not only self employed in Litigation Support Video production and presentation, but that on his list of clients are the following:

United States Attorneys Office
State Attorneys Office
Public Defender
Each Court House from Miami Dade County, Broward County, Palm Beach County - several other counties in Florida.
The City of Hollywood (where Pineda started out as a cop), the City of Fort Lauderdale...

And that Col Hayden worked on several very high profile cases in Florida, and some international cases including the Cali Columbia aircraft crash?

I don't think Col Hayden has anything to worry about from Pineda's punk kids...

Are you threatening Col Hayden with illegal law enforcement BS?

Ironically, Pineda still has his Pension from the FDLE - they had dropped there investigation of Pineda when he quite his job (retired earlier than he really wanted to).

Wouldn't it be great if the FDLE re-opened the case and stripped Pineda of his retirement???

I think that all you puppies ought to watch your step - or your buddy Pineda might find his arse in some really SERIOUS unfortunate situations!

Or not - keep flapping your gums...

I'd likely not want to piss off Col Hayden, but that's just me.

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